Written in response to the comments posted in the previous entry:
Please bear with me.
If by morality we mean "good judgment," then yes, it should be tied to sex. If by morality we mean "ethical decisions," then yes, I believe that it should be tied to sex. If by morality we mean "do's and do-not's as they apply specifically to sexual etiquette," then you should decide that with you partner. If by morality we mean "Christian dogma," no, it shouldn't be tied to sex. If by morality we mean "what Jesus taught," then yes, it should be tied to sex.
It appears to me that in the adult world, everthing is tied to morality (you choose your definition there). Pulling the morality out of something is irresponsible since it's there in the first place to ensure safe conduct for all who decide to journey with said thing. Be it sex, the Constitution, college, our Judicial system, the workforce, or the professional positions that we will all hopefully occupy, morality is apart of the ubiquitous fabric weaving these things together. As of late, this idea has become convoluted because there appears to be so many "moralities" floating out in the ether.
Morality should be one of the major components tied to sex. Sex is simply too dangerous to be taken lightly. A LOT of the girls in Intervarsity have emotional damage because of a sexual past. I was really close to a girl and helped emotionally support her through an abortion; it was terrifying! Anything that could cause that much hurt should be taken seriously. Of course there are physiological dangers to sex: e.g., STD's, and unwanted pregnancies. Let's not forget rape; I don't for a moment think that Addem was advocating this as an outcome to sex without morality, but I can see rape as a possible outcome in a world where morality has been seperated from sex.
Thank you both for your words of support. I may have a lengthy post disagreeing with you, Addem, but thanks for saying I'm a well adjusted person. That meant a lot.
Same to you Zack, thank you for praying.
posted by Maturity @ 4:04 PM
20 comments
20 Comments:
I hear the word, "slut", being used a lot in my day to day life, but I am becoming more and more perplexed as to what I'm supposed to infer when I hear it. If a single woman has many one-time sexual encounters but has the forethought to prevent disease and unwanted pregnancy and can answer the question, "why am I doing this" with a positive response (say, the opposite of "because I need to feel desireable"), who am I to use negative words to describe her.
Am I being amoral in my thinking? In my mind this single woman is making good judgements, but I doubt that she is making ethical decisions, due to the fact that her behavior (though thoughtful and safe) goes against the status quo. It seems to me that having many sexual partners is still Wrong even if she cannot be reliably labeled as "promiscuous".
Eh, I dunno.
Want a really easy way to hurt a girl's feelings regardless of her sexual history? It doesn't matter if the girl is a nun the word "slut" hurts and I am not sure why but I would be willing to put money down that almost every girl in our society has been called one at least once whether to her face or behind her back.
I think the definition varies person to person but my definition of it is a girl that has sex to gain some type of validation. I like sex, it's fun but I am afraid of being looked at as a slut no matter how comfy I am with my sexuality.
As far as the consequences of sex I think at this age a child is more inconvient but won't destroy your life, basically we all know what will happen if you have unprotected sex as adults the decision is up to the individual and really we can't victimized those that willingly have sex at this age and have to deal with the consequences and don't get me wrong they are scary but life is scary and bad things happen, how do we help prevent that? Take knowledge, you know like 'condoms work, but use two forms of contraceptive just in case' and 'not having sex means no STDs' 'don't have sex to make yourself feel better because you will only feel worst' and apply it to life. I do not think teens should be having sex, I don't care how mature you are, only adults should have sex because adults should be better prepared to deal with consequence. That's how I feel.
Honestly there are days I wish I could wake up a virgin again because if you think that you really want to have sex as a virgin it is so much worst when you have had it and aren't gettin' it. You know what it feels like so it makes desire almost painful and you don't want to have casual sex with someone because OH NO! THAT'S TABOO! But you have sex so it's like, "Well I am damaged goods already might as well." After my marriage that is definetly how I felt but I would get into a relationship, have sex and then not feel whole in that relationship like that person honestly loved me. Like it was about the sex and without the sex there is no relationship and well that is why I have stopped having sexual relationships.
Now, let me get Jew on you for a sec, alright so Jews look at sex differently they figure there is nothing shameful or "immoral" about sex the act because sex is natural, God gave us our 'special parts' and therefore they aren't unclean or dirty BUT they do believe that the union between a man and a women is so wonderful, so sacred, so holy, BUT only when done between two people deeply in love.
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with casual sex if the person is a psychologically healthy, incredibly mature adult and the feelings are mutual and the two people are having safe sex. I could care less what others do behind closed doors unless it hurts another person. Personally though I would rather have a sexual relationship with someone that loves me and now only with someone I intend to spend the rest of my life with because I can't seperate sex from love therefore I shouldn't have it unless I am in love.
As for internet porn I think it's very addictive, very dangerous and the fact that you see that puts you above those in denial. I hear stories of the internet whether it be gaming, porn, etc. destroying families like any addiction and slowly destroy the individual. There is such a thin line between being a sexually healthy adult and knowing that sexuality and sexual desire are nothing to be ashamed of and abusing the use of porn. I don't like the idea of porn just because I think it creates this unhealthy standard of sexual relationships and honestly is misguiding a lot of young men out there that are not sexually experienced and that are. Men seem to have no idea what women want sexual because they watch porn and think, "Oh this porn star liked that so my girlfriend will too!" Ha! Noooooo! Porn is marketed towards men meaning what those women are doing is to appeal to men not women and aren't honest depictions of sex, they are a fantasy, it's strictly pleasure and that takes away from the intimacy. From the beauty of sex and turns it into this vulgar act that means nothing and is something that is somewhat shameful. Bottom line; to me sex is healthy, masturbation is healthy, porn is OK sometimes but too much porn is a problem and to be really aware of your actions.
Anyway that's just a women's perpective.
I think that a woman's perspective is what I needed, especially the porn part. I see a brutal and inhuman aspect to pornography, It's like they take the humanity out of it so that it's only sexual organ interacting rather than two people having sex.
As far as being a virgin gooes, I'm really glad that I still have my virginity. The older I get, the more I hear people talking about sex and how destructive it can be. I'm not even talking about some of my Christian friends who have had pre-marital sex and wish they hadn't, I'm talking about girls from my workplace or other people whom I have grown-up conversations with.
I'm suppose I'm so burnt out on the issue. I see it on TV (if I ever watch it), I read about it in books, I see it plastered in the stores and the mall (if I ever go). It makes me think there's this giant secret I'm missing out on, and I possibly am, but I don't want to deal with the guilt of having pre-marital sex and I don't want that emotional baggage to be between me and the girl. I'm tired of hearing about it and I'm tired of seeing it.
Bah...
I think you're using the wrong language here in describing pornography. When I look at pornography I see the emotions associated with sex stripped away, leaving only the action and the want for that action. Even with the pretenses we can find in porno, very rarely will there be an emotional component.
When looking to just the image on the screen, I find it difficult to think of porn as inhumane (I would forgoe thinking about brutality at all, unless the image on the screen is rape or associated with rape). That is not to say I find the image humane, but these two words aren't exactly opposites.
If we stretch our thinking beyond the artifice we see in the image to the people engaging in that artifice, I think you could be correct, depending on your thoughts on how the porn industry acquires stars and the general condition of those stars. However, if we remove the drug use, the coercion and exploitation, what then. How will you think about porn?
Let's also remember that Tracy's perspective on porn is not the perspective of "a woman". It's simply Tracy's perspective. Don't get me wrong, Tracy is indeed a woman and this fact is a factor in her perspective and I do not think it would be wrong to say that other women hold a similar (if not identical) perspective. However, to abstract Tracy's perspective (and really, women in general) to such a point that you can call it "a woman's perspective" is depressing.
J.J., I don't think you have an issue with sex at all. I think you have an issue with pretenses. And I honestly don't blame you, with so many people incorrectly using and demonizing words like "promiscuous". It seems perfectly reasonable to attach sex to words like "love". That said, it's important to understand that the act of sex is largely not to blame for the bad experiences you are hearing about. Don't forget that you are a virgin because of your faith and not because you're avoiding the horrible act of sex. Pre-marital sex is guilt-ridden for you because of your god and your relationship with him. Though marriage may be the key for you, don't think this will always be the case. People that are having sex aren't necessarily making bad decisions. Most probably are, but let's not think that marriage would somehow create a wealth of good decisions.
During composing my post, it occured to me that I knew of a quote which shows what exactly a bad sexual experience is. I couldn't really make a spot for it in my post, so here it is:
"Katherine pressed me up against the wall outside the parking lot elevator and shoved her tongue down my throat. She grabbed my crotch and tugged as though it was an emergency brake lever. When she started grinding into me, I felt tiny nuggets of stucco tearing off the wall under the pressure of my back rubbing up and down against it. She wasn't a bad kisser, but she clearly had no idea of her strength. If she pushed and squeezed any harder, I was going to expire like Lenny's mouse in Of Mice and Men.
So this is how it feels to be a petite cheerleader getting manhandled by a pasted lummox after the prom? I can understand why some young women never have orgasms. I'd be scared senseless. How horrible would it be if after all this she was going to shove something into me really hard for 30 seconds and then pass out on top of me, breathing chicken wings and Amstel into my face?"
Unless the stories you're hearing are about rape or situations like this, keep in mind that the bad experience wasn't bad because of sex, but because of pretenses.
I hate arguing semantics because I find them to be a waste of time, case and point. But I will say if you are trying to argue my wording Logan then you will find that you are wrong in this circumstance. I certainly didn't say THIS IS ALL WOMEN'S PERCPECTIVE. I said this is "A woman's percpective" 'a', 'woman' all singular and shared some things I have picked up from girlfriends, one who is with me right now and says if you talk to more women you will find that an overwhelming amount feel this way.
This may come as a surprise, I know some of you know, some of you don't. Paul, Adam, Chitwood, and Mor have known for some time but it's time I tell the world through JJ's blog; I am a woman. Yes, it's true. I have a female reproductive system, as well as outer female genitalia(funny story I used to get that word and gentile confused! Isn't that great?), and breast. Steph says if there is any need for confirmation you can also ask her, she has seen me pee.
Alright, sorry I will get serious. JJ, I addressed that response to you thus I will stick to talking to you about it and I don't want to waste anytime. I am suppose to be doing something for Temple but I am goofin' off as usual. If my Rebbe could see me now.
I was just trying to reconfirm for you that there is a distinction between porn and what are religions justify as "kosher" sex because I believe Christians and Jews share the same beliefs in sex except it's taught differently.
What I find inhumane about internet porn is it's invasion of privacy and how they blur the lines between what is ethically exceptable. There are sites out there that depict sleeping or unconscious women and men doing things to them without their knowledge, taking advantage of drunk girls, "exploited teens" is actually a very popular website, child porn is availble to anyone now, upskirt cams are one of the most popular things on the internet, a long with hidden cameras and such. Now any girl can be a porn star with out her knowledge or consent, we are instructed to protect ourselves from upskirt cams by wearing pants, you can publish pictures of an ex on the web without fear of legal repercussions as long as you willing took the pictures at the time, there is nothing legally that can be done for publishing them. Three of my girlfriends that work in Casino's have been approached to do porn and were each devastated and one stayed home for a week she was so embarrased and ashamed when she was just being a cocktail waitress, trying to earn money to live but now your everyday college age girl is a porn star. When we objective women to this ridiculous degree then porn transcends being a moral problem to being an ethical problem and something that needs to be address by society. Where do we draw the line is definetly something we need to ask ourselves individually because as we all know movements in a society must begin on an individual level.
I am by no means a feminist, my friends jokingly call me the "female male-chauvinist" but I am woman in this day and age that wants to be respected and treated like a person not a porn star. I want sex with someone I love to be intimate and deep not porn.
You are a stand up guy JJ for seeing that there is something wrong with this internet porn thing. Not necessarily with those viewing it but with those making it. And to listening to my opinion without the arrogance that so many men our age have towards sex. It's a psychological fact that the sexual experience is different for men and women so take any advice from any woman or anyone regardless of it's usefullness. That's knowledge ya know? Diversity brings knowledge.
Alright, I gotta do some rabbinical text and Talmud so until next JJ.
I am very sorry that you feel arguing about semantics is a waste of time Tracy. I do not. Nor do I understand why (especially when communicating just with marks on a screen) anyone would, considering that language is the only way we have to understand one another and ourselves. If you are arguing with me, you are going to have to argue semantics, since I will not not do it.
You don't have to remind me what you wrote here, I remember. I'm sorry that you mistook what I was saying. I'll blame my language for that. I was not taking issue with what you had said, but the fact that J.J. said he needed "a woman's perspective". His language leads me to believe that it did not matter that it was your opinion, but that the opinion was coming from a woman. He made an abstraction. He reduced you and all women into "a woman" which held an opinion that was agreeable to him.
How widespread your opinion is among women does not excuse his reduction of you or his reduction of all women. Remember that though you are a woman you are not "a woman". You are concrete and not an abstraction. Be aware that I am not trying to scold him, I am arguing about semantics. I think more language will help his case more than less language.
I appreciate that you're trying to distinguish porn from sex, but you take offense to the realities of porn outside of the image and J.J. seems to be taking offense to the image itself. In other words, J.J. seems to be taking offense to an artifice of sex. Not the act itself, mind you, but the act as it's mimicked through books, tv, etc.
I do not disagree that the vast majority of the porn you can acquire is ethically reprehensible in how it is made (and sometimes how it is supposed to be viewed). However, the point I'm trying to make is that if a hypothetical porn website was free of the issues you mentioned, J.J. would still not be okay with it.
On more thing... don't think that you need to distance yourself from Feminism when talking to me. There is good Feminism and bad Feminism, and I'm smart enough to observe the difference.
I'm comfortable with everything I said.
So am I.
"Child porn is availble to anyone now."
Where!? I've been looking for days.
Although, for the record, I am quite impressed with your academic arguments, Logan. You should REALLY go back to college.
At first, I was mad and second-guessing myself because it's hard to talk semantics without it sounding like you're on the attack, but I am comfortable with everyhting I said. Pornography is to me: brutal, unloving; it dehumanizes men and woman; it's a repulsive addiction (although I've been clean since the original post!), a natural distraction from my lonliness, which I equate to weakness; and it is a sexual perversion to me. It is frightening. When I am tempted, I walk into my room and imagine my computer as a giant, growling black dog waiting to consume me. Strange that I give in, is it not?
I realize I have pretenses. I can number them like I can number the books in Getchell library. But hey, I'm a work in progress. I can't be everything to everyone, by I can admit my weaknesses to disspell any rumors of my great spiritual strength.
Thanks for listening.
If you ever want to talk about stuff, I'm all ears.
Bleachers. Saturday. 10pm. Your thoughts?
My thoughts are, "yes."
Also, do you remember that Loch Leven hike we went on last summer? I kinda want to do it again on Sunday or Monday. I'm thinkin' about gettin' up there and doing some swimming. That's what Paul and I did last time we went there and it was quite fun.
Well I don't even find the academics of the argument that impressive.
What he is describing is common sense metaphysics, little to his knowledge and if we are going to get all philosophical on this then the truth is dualism isn't fact, it's a theory. One held by most of western civilization but still just a theory. You can't prove that there is this metaphysical abstract world that holds feminity as something real therefore any arguements that state that you can are pretentious, unfounded and don't uphold anything.
Also the word woman I don't think offers an abstract, I think feminity does but not woman it has a direct scientific definition and when it's said it is always being used literally or in a mocking sense (i.e. you find out your guy friend has seen Uptown Girls you call him a girl. He isn't literally a girl, you aren't hinting that he is you just mocking him for doing something feminine.). A man can wear a dress but he is not a woman, a man can get a sex change but he doesn't have a female reproductive system which would make him by definition not a woman. You can argue that by taking on a "woman's" lifestyle is now one but that's insinuating all women lived the same. There are women that were clothes intended for men, cut there hair short, date feminine women and work welding jobs, are they women? Yes.
There was nothing wrong with the wording, I am a woman.
Also for someone that seems to disregard Christianity so much commonsense metaphysics was brought to the Western world by Christianity, by St. Augustine. So to take on this position, though the theory began with Plato's Platonic Forms, it was redefined and sort of polished up to be what we know of dualism today, and is what he is using to uphold his criterior.
Also if you are looking for child porn it's not the hard to find, watch one of those specials on it and you'll find most of the people arrested on charges of it conduct there business through the world wide web. One of my friends actually was creeped out when a website for it came up in a search he was doing about victims of child porn.
As far as feminism goes I DO NOT want to be associated with todays feminism because I can vote, I can wear pants or whatever I so please, if a man disrespects me I can take legal actions, I can be my choice career a Rabbi, I have the rights I want. The world may still be "not fair" but the world will never be fair. It isn't fair to a lot of people the disabled, any religion, any race, they will run into conflict so the world isn't really fair to everyone all the time and some never. I see my live is good, there are women in other countries that can't do the things I do, there are PEOPLE in other countries that make my life look as fabulous as Donald Trump's, I am lucky.
The women that fought for me to live the way I do I respect and honor, I am so grateful to them but they fought so that I would haven't to be a feminism, they fought for the rights entilted to a human being by our constitution. Todays feminist take on a lifestyle, a lifestyle I am not exactly down with but if you live in this country you should not have to take on a political label like feminism to get respect. A conservative Muslim woman is entilted to it and her rights, a fundamentalist Christian republican conservative woman is entitled to it and her rights, an Orthodox Jewish modest woman is entitled to it and it's something we shouldn't have to fight for anymore and on a large scale don't.
Anyway, crap! I wasted to much time on this, I got stuff to do. Untill next time JJ. God bless.
hey ya know, I was thinking about the spiritual side of your original post. I have a post up at my blog that is very Jew-y of course but we have the same G-d, the G-d of Abraham. So you might enjoy it. I want to sort of get in touch with more Christians, see that Jesus was a jew like you have said before and remind them that we aren't so different so any other Christians, Cheb, and Josh might enjoy it too.
Cool. If you want to get in touch with more Christians and things like that, I could help you find a Bible Study that would work with you. There's always Intervarsity. Or maybe we (you, me, Cheb) could sit down every once in a while and talk about some spiritual stuff. I wouldn't mind getting more acquainted with some Jews as well. I once had about an hour and a half conversation with the president of Hilel on campus. That was kinda cool. So yeah. Whatever suits you best and would make you the most comfortable.
Ciao.
I actually don't know where you blog is or where I could find it...
Yeah I always like to know everthing, it helps ya know? To strive for that diversity. I grew up Catholic but don't know much about protestants, like I could be using the word protestants wrong because I was told a protestants is anyone not Catholic but Christian so that is probably wrong...I should look that up. But yeah I want to know each side and different things. I went to um, that church across from Corky's by the high school once with a friend and I had the time of my life. He was suprised I was so into it, but I am open minded. Talmud is full of people Christian, catholic, atheist and that's what makes it interesting. I don't like to convert people or argue someone's core beliefs because I feel that's disrepectful, but I like to listen and I like to talk about my beliefs as well. Well and also it's halacha to not advertise for the religion or try to convert, they think that it's arrogant amoung other things to assume we know better and it's just sort of intrusive. It's also a commandment to love the gentile and respect his lifestyle. When I go to Israel I want to meet some Muslims but I don't think that will go over at all! Just me being idealist and optimistic.
I just hate that Jews and Christian divide themselves so much ya know? Just because we believe somethings differently doesn't mean we don't share a God.
http://lil-pink-star7.livejournal.com/
is my url. It's the one second to the most recent that I like. It isn't normally my style but I was feeling sentimental.
J.J.
I hope no one ever thought I didn’t take anything from the classes I failed. You’re absolutely right about college, but it’s the why that bothers me. I won’t get into that here, but I will say that I will go back to college when UNR lets me go back.
I’m happy that you’re comfortable with everything you’ve said here, but it seemed to me that you were tangled up in some language and that I might have been able to offer a little insight to help you. I can relate to talking semantics too; I was acutely aware that what I was saying might have seemed like an attack, but I couldn’t think of another way to say it. I decided to err on the side of clarity.
My issue with your condemnation of porno is that I wasn’t entirely sure what was offending you. At first I thought you were combining the facsimile of sex seen in porno and the actual act. I covered that in the previous post and set about trying to clean up sex and how I think about it. For me, sex isn’t bad it’s all the other stuff that gets wrapped up and combined with sex that can be bad. However, I can’t appeal to your religious sensibilities so any argument we had on this subject would have that chasm to accommodate.
Additionally, it occurred to me that you were thinking of the conditions of the porno actors and where and how those actors are acquired. I find these things reprehensible, but there is porno that is produced without any of the things I take offense to and thus, I’m not bothered by it. However, as I reread what you had written, it occurred to me that you were in fact taking offense to the facsimile of sex porno offers. More so, it seemed as if you found all images of sex offensive.
Ultimately, I still don’t know exactly how you are thinking. Your language seems to indicate that you are still combining both the image and the production and though I would venture the opinion that you don’t like to see sex represented in any films or books, I can’t really say anything conclusively.
Tracy,
I have a whole lot to say in regards to our argument, especially since you feel the need to insult my intelligence when you are either not inclined or able to fix your grammar and spelling. However, I’m going to try and keep this short.
It would appear that you have not really understood what I have thus far written on the subject. Never once have I offered a stance with a Platonic foundation. I hate Plato and I would never argue for his world of forms. However, I have no problem inverting and undoing his binary opposition.
Language is relational and differential. That is, I understand what things are by understanding what they aren’t. This means that I can’t understand language in a vacuum, but through context. You and I have had arguments over context before, but I’ll trust that you can follow what I have written here, since you seem to have some notion of difference. That said, “Woman” can be the signifier for an abstraction depending on the context. If I am using the word to signify an actual woman (you for instance) I am signifying something concrete. However, if I use the word to signify a hypothetical woman, I am making an abstraction.
This is my swap of Plato’s binary opposition. He claimed that the concrete world we see day to day is merely the shadow of another more real world. His hypothetical woman was more real than a concrete one. The concrete one was the abstraction. On one hand I am claiming something of the opposite, but I am also pointing out that this binary opposition is created through difference (that is, both parts are dependant on one another) and is not substantive in any way. I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t confuse my water cooler Deconstructionism with Platonism in the future.
Continuing on, I would like to point out that the words “woman” and “girl” are not the same word and typically signify different things. Even if they were made the same by some prestidigitation, I could still use them to signify different things. For example, a sentence: “A woman acting as a woman”. Here, even though I am using a word twice, I am not signifying the same thing each time.
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